Joe Rogan Experience #1095 - TJ English & Joey Diaz

Episode Summary

Main Topics Discussed

• TJ English's book "The Corporation": A deep dive into the Cuban-American organized crime organization, established in the mid-1960s by Bay of Pigs veteran Jose Miguel Battle, which lasted until the end of the century.
• The "Bolita" (Illegal Lottery): The primary racket that fueled "The Corporation," its immense profitability, cultural significance, and mystical elements tied to dreams and numerology within the Cuban community.
• Jose Miguel Battle's Complex Figure: His dual identity as a revered Bay of Pigs hero and a ruthless crime boss, driven by a powerful desire for revenge against Fidel Castro and those who wronged him.
• The Bay of Pigs Invasion's Aftermath: The disastrous U.S.-backed invasion, the sense of betrayal felt by Cuban exiles towards the Kennedy administration, and its long-lasting impact on Cuban-American political militancy.
• CIA & Cuban Exiles' Covert Alliance: The enduring partnership between the CIA and militant anti-Castro Cuban exiles, involved in various secret operations, including alleged connections to the JFK assassination and the Watergate burglary.
• Fidel Castro's Resilience: Discussion of the numerous assassination attempts against Castro and his ability to remain in power for decades, as well as varying perspectives on the Cuban Revolution and Castro's popularity within Cuba.
• Che Guevara's Controversial Image: The modern perception of Che as a symbol of liberty, contrasted with his historical role as a "mass murderer" and the significant animosity towards him among certain Latin American communities.
• Joey Diaz's Personal Connection: Joey's experiences growing up in Union City, New Jersey, intimately involved with the numbers racket and the cultural nuances of Cuban-American life.

Key Insights & Memorable Moments

• TJ English's rigorous research process, often dedicating two out of three years per book to in-depth investigation and interviews.
• The extreme loyalty tests among the Irish gangs in Hell's Kitchen (featured in "The Westies"), which sometimes involved dismembering bodies.
• The "bolita" lottery was not just a criminal enterprise but a central part of the Cuban-American community, offering a sense of hope and a way to "make your dreams come true" through numerology.
• "The Corporation" amassed billions of dollars, leading to internal greed, territorial disputes, and significant violence among the Cubans themselves.
• Jose Miguel Battle's charisma and hero status from the Bay of Pigs allowed him to command immense loyalty and operate with impunity for years, even after becoming a brutal leader.
• The Bay of Pigs invasion is presented as a crucial event for understanding late 20th-century U.S. politics, due to the continuous thread of CIA involvement with militant Cuban exiles in various covert operations.
• The revelation that five of the seven Watergate burglars were Bay of Pigs veterans, recruited by CIA agent Howard Hunt, underscores the pervasive nature of this alliance.
• Fidel Castro survived over 632 known assassination plots, highlighting his incredible resilience.
• Joey Diaz's vivid anecdotes about running numbers for his mother as an 8-year-old and the coded Spanish phrases used in the numbers game.
• The profound cultural pride among many Cubans for standing up to the United States, despite economic hardships.
• The historical "rift" between Argentinians and Cubans due to Che Guevara being Argentinian, demonstrating the deep personal and political feelings surrounding him.

Notable Quotes or Revelations

• "In the case of Hell's Kitchen in the Westies it was cut up bodies was not only would you kill somebody for me but will you make the body disappear and they tested each other with with the cutting up of the bodies." – TJ English on extreme loyalty tests.
• "The corporation is a story of the Cuban American organized crime organization that began in the mid-1960s and existed all the way to the end of the century and it was led by this mobster named Jose Miguel battle..." – TJ English introducing his new book.
• "Everyone bets the number little old ladies bet the number priests cops you know you can bet a nickel you can bet a dime you can bet $10,000 hugely profitable for whoever controls and organizes." – TJ English describing the reach of bolita.
• "With Cubans it was very mystical it was tied into dreams and belief the idea was you bet the number and you try to make your dreams come true." – TJ English on bolita's cultural aspect.
• "He in an act of incredible heroism he saved the life of a number of his platoon members... and people defended him even even when it it turned ugly and he became a ruthless boss who was killing people left and right." – TJ English on Jose Miguel Battle's enduring legend.
• "If you find out who that guy [Che Guevara] is you're wearing a mass murderers t-shirt." – Joe Rogan criticizing the romanticized image of Che.
• "The Bay of Pigs invasion is the key to understanding the whole latter part of the 20th century politics in the United States." – TJ English on the historical significance of the event.
• "They say there was something like 632 known plots over over the course of four or five decades to kill Castro." – TJ English on attempts against Castro's life.

Overall Themes

• The Interplay of Crime and Politics: The episode vividly demonstrates how organized crime, particularly the Cuban-American mafia, was not merely about illicit gains but deeply intertwined with geopolitical events, anti-Castro political motivations, and the complex relationship between the U.S. government and Cuban exiles.
• Loyalty, Betrayal, and the Quest for Revenge: Recurring themes include the extreme demands of loyalty within criminal organizations, the profound sense of betrayal felt by Bay of Pigs veterans, and how a relentless drive for revenge—both political and personal—fueled the actions of key figures like Jose Miguel Battle.
• Cultural Identity and Community: The podcast highlights the unique cultural aspects of the Cuban-American community in places like Union City and Miami, showcasing how elements like the "bolita" lottery served as a social glue, while also exploring the internal divisions and pride related to the Cuban Revolution.
• The Power and Distortion of Narrative: The discussion explores how individuals like Jose Miguel Battle can maintain a heroic image despite heinous acts, and how historical figures like Che Guevara can be selectively remembered, illustrating the human tendency to craft narratives that serve particular ideals or community perceptions.