Joe Rogan Experience #2301 - Ben Lamm

Episode Summary

Main Topics

The episode features Ben Lamm, CEO of Colossal Biosciences, discussing his pioneering work in de-extinction and species preservation. The conversation delves into the scientific methodologies, ethical considerations, and ambitious goals of bringing back extinct animals like the woolly mammoth and direwolf. Lamm explains how advanced gene-editing and cloning technologies are being applied to conservation efforts, highlighting both the groundbreaking achievements and the bureaucratic challenges faced in this nascent field. The discussion also touches upon the broader societal implications of synthetic biology, from human genetic engineering to environmental solutions.

Key Discussion Points

• De-Extinction Methodology: Ben Lamm detailed the intricate process of de-extinction, starting with gathering fragmented ancient DNA from samples, some as old as 1.2 million years for the mammoth. This DNA is then assembled using AI and compared to the closest living relatives, like the Asian elephant for the woolly mammoth or the gray wolf for the direwolf. Genetic engineering tools like CRISPR are used to make precise edits, modifying specific nucleotides to reintroduce lost phenotypes such as hair, fat layers, and size, as demonstrated with the "woolly mice" proof-of-concept.
• The Direwolf Project: Colossal Biosciences successfully created three direwolf pups—Romulus, Remus, and Khesi—by sequencing ancient DNA from a 13,000-year-old tooth and a 73,000-year-old skull. These animals, larger and stockier than modern wolves with distinctive manes and white fur, are currently living in a 2,000-acre secure preserve. Lamm notes fascinating observations of their inherited behaviors, including burgeoning hunting instincts, illustrating how ancient genetic information manifests in contemporary life. Investor Peter Jackson was deeply moved by hearing a direwolf howl for the first time in 10,000 years.
• Red Wolf Conservation & Bureaucracy: Lamm highlighted efforts to preserve the critically endangered red wolf, of which only about 15 remain in the wild. Colossal developed a non-invasive cloning method using blood samples, successfully producing four red wolves with greater genetic diversity than the extant wild population. Despite offering this technology and animals to the US Fish and Wildlife Service at no cost, the initiative faced significant bureaucratic delays, with officials proposing multi-year, multi-million dollar internal studies to "see if cloning was possible," contrasting with the Department of Interior's immediate support for innovation.
• Ethical and Philosophical Debates: The conversation addressed the "playing God" criticism, with Lamm arguing that humans already profoundly alter nature. He discussed the academic resistance to de-extinction, often rooted in philosophical arguments around the definition of a "species" and the "publish or perish" culture. Concerns about technology falling into "nefarious hands" were raised, citing China's reported human embryo editing for intelligence and BGI's global gene sequencing efforts. Colossal maintains a strict mandate against human genetic work, choosing to spin out human-applicable technologies instead.
• Broader Impact of Synthetic Biology: Lamm outlined several other groundbreaking projects and potential future applications. This includes engineering quolls for resistance to cane toad neurotoxins by making a single genetic edit, and the development of artificial wombs to scale endangered species production without relying on surrogates. A spun-out company, Breaking, is using engineered microbes to chemically break down plastics into biomass within months, potentially offering a solution to global plastic pollution. The technology also points to future human health applications like anti-aging treatments and advanced preimplantation genetic testing.

Notable Moments

• John Reeves and the Boneyard: Lamm recounted visiting John Reeves' "boneyard" in Alaska, a permafrost site for mammoth retrieval. He described a chilling first encounter with Reeves, who immediately instructed him, "If I stop short, you hand me that gun," indicating the constant threat of grizzlies or other large wildlife.
• Discovery of Thylacine DNA: An extraordinary anecdote revealed how Colossal found crucial Thylacine DNA in museum archives. A "miracle pup" was preserved in a small cup of formaldehyde, yielding a 98% complete genome, while the mother's "head in a bucket" provided a 99.9% complete genome, showcasing overlooked scientific treasures in museum basements.
• Pronghorn Antelope's Speed: Joe Rogan highlighted the baffling speed of the Pronghorn Antelope, capable of running 55 mph, a trait evolved to evade extinct American cheetahs. This illustrates a "remnant of an older past," where a prey animal retains an advantage against predators that no longer exist, a perfect example of adaptive evolution's lingering effects.

Key Takeaways

This episode vividly illustrates how synthetic biology is moving beyond theoretical discussions into tangible, real-world applications with Colossal Biosciences spearheading de-extinction. Listeners gain insight into the complex scientific challenges of bringing back extinct species and the ethical dilemmas of "playing God" in an era of unprecedented genetic control. The conversation highlights the critical potential of these technologies for conservation, addressing endangered species crises, and even environmental issues like plastic pollution, while also hinting at a future where human genetic enhancement becomes a widespread reality, prompting profound societal questions.